KESKUSTELU

Kyllä, Volgan mutkasta alajuoksulle päin on vanhinta ja vahvinta mehiläistenhoitoaluetta. Juuri sinne vanhimmat indoeurooppalais-uralilaiset kontaktit paikannetaan. Kantauralin sana *mekši 'mehiläinen' on esiarjalainen laina, koska siinä näkyy arjalainen (levinnyt jossain määrin naapureillekin) ns. RUKI-sääntö, eli *s > *š näiden neljän äänteen edellä. Kanta-arjaan tullessa tapahtui sitten vielä *e > *a, jota ennen sana on siis uraliin lainattu.

Toisin sanoen sanat, joiden äännepiirteet viittaavat tiettyyn indoeurooppalaiseen kielihaaraan, ovat kiistatta lainattu siitä uraliin - päinvastainen lainasuunta ei tule kysymykseen.

Mutta kumpi on ollut ennen, hunajan vai metsien ja tundran rubus-sukuisten marjojen hyödyntäminen, joiden nimet ovat ilmeisimmin samaa kantaa:

Kiitos Johanille mehiläisenhoitotiedoista. Oma kommenttini koski, kuten nähtiin ("Kyllä, Volgan mutkasta alajuoksulle päin on vanhinta ja vahvinta mehiläistenhoitoaluetta. Juuri sinne vanhimmat indoeurooppalais-uralilaiset kontaktit paikannetaan."), vanhinta uralilaisten kielten kannalta merkittävää mehiläishoitoaluetta.

moro

katselin telkkarista jotain dokumenttia parista suomalaisesta jotka olivat jollain etelämannertutkimusretkellä sata vuotta sitten .

Mutta jossain vaiheessa dokkarissa sanottiin näin
"vanhan uskomuksen mukaan laivalla piti olla vähintään yksi suomalainen koska sanottiin että suomalaiset osasivat tuulet"

?

Usko pätevään noituuteen näyttää liittyvän ko. väestöön.
On myös viitteitä siitä, että Aasian rannikolle kulkeutuneet väestöt olisivat olleet tärkeitä Tyynen meren merenkulussa.
Noiden väestöjen parissa lähetystyö on ollut kivistä, noin 2% kristittyjä. Pysyvät shamanismissa.

Lieneekö oikea ketju kysellä tätä, tai onkohan aiemmin tullut esille; saunakulttuuristamme.

Kuinka kauan saunominen on ollut tapana meillä Suomenniemeä asuttavilla? Keskiajalta? Kauempaa?

Onko suomalais-ugrilaisilla kansoilla muualla ollut sama tapa?

Suomalais-ugrilaisista kansoista en tiedä, mutta viikinkiajan skandinaaveilla oli tapana saunoa. Sauna ei ollut vain pesupaikka, vaan myös juoruilu- ja politikointipaikka:

http://books.google.fi/books?id=3h-lkgB ... &ct=result

The society's executive director, Heikka Heimonen, gave me a potted history. The earliest known sauna is 6,000 years old, a covered pit containing a firehole filled with stones. In more recent centuries, the sauna was the part of the house used for drying linen, smoking meat and, yes, giving birth: the only place warm enough to keep a baby alive through a Finnish winter.

One of the earliest references of the Finnish Sauna were found to be dated back in 1112 and it is known that the earliest Saunas were represented by places dug in the ground; being the holy places as churches where even babies were born.

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a stately sauna bath decree?

Teresa Poole in Peking


Sunday, 4 August 1996
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NormalLargeExtra LargeEvery Chinese schoolchild is drilled in the motherland's historic "Four Inventions": gunpowder, paper, printing and the compass. But last week a somewhat unlikely item was added to the list of things for which the rest of the world should apparently be grateful to China - the sauna.

According to the China Daily, the sauna "may well have once been a popular luxury in ancient China", and "related records on steam bathing [by ancient Chinese] may be found in various historical accounts".

It seems that nothing was beyond the ancient Chinese. A couple of years ago, an article claimed that China had also invented golf, which was news to Scotland. And in the recent Peking Toilet Exhibition, photographs of archaeological remains were produced to demonstrate that China was home to the earliest known public convenience.

Finland, which has a million saunas for its population of five million, is likely to be devastated by this latest revelation. According to the China Daily, during the Warring States period (475-221BC), Shi Hu, the King of Zhao of the Jie ethnic group, used to bathe with his wives in the steam from a pool into which more than 1,000 scalding metal bars, each weighing just over 40lb, had been plunged.

As for Kubla Khan, "struck down by a disabling illness" one day after fighting, "his attendants poured water on a scorching hot stone to make steam" which helped him to expel a blood clot, explained the newspaper.

"It is possible that the Chinese style of steaming or fuming found its way to Finland and was eventually accepted by the Finns," said the China Daily, suggesting that the Chinese invention could have spread to Finland when the Hun people, who originated in China, invaded Hungary in AD376.

What is difficult to say at this stage is the damage these claims may do to normally warm Sino-Finnish relations. On putting them to the Finnish embassy in Peking, I was immediately summoned for a full and frank briefing on the provenance of the sauna. China's claim was "a good joke", said a spokesman. Diplomats explained that saunas in Finland dated back to the Stone Age, and were explicitly mentioned in the country's national epic poem, the Kalevala, which went back "thousands of years".

As for the alleged Kubla Khan incident, "we are quite convinced that the attendants of Kubla Khan would have been Finnish," the spokesman said. "Finns are known for building a sauna wherever they go."

Indeed, the Finnish ambassador's residence in Peking boasts a sauna which is "the best in China, if not in Asia", said the diplomat. Senior Chinese officials eagerly accept invitations to come for a sweat. In one of Peking's best-kept secrets, the embassy runs a "Sino-Finnish Sauna Association" open to Chinese people who have been based in Scandinavia and who have caught the sauna habit.

There was also so much more to the sauna than just a bit of steam, it was explained. The fundamentals of the sauna experience included "forests, lakes, clean air and fresh water" - which would rule out most of China.

The Finnish government will have to decide whether to make a formal protest to the Chinese over this affront to national pride and sovereignty. But there is a glimmer of hope. One diplomat triumphantly pulled out a copy of the brand-new official Modern Chinese Dictionary. "Sangnayu" - the Chinese word for sauna - is indeed defined as a "method for washing using steam". But the dictionary adds: "Originating from Finland."

Eli kiinalaiset siis keksivät saunankin.

Eli kiinalaiset siis keksivät saunankin, mistä se hunnien mukana levisi Unkariin 300-luvulla. Olisikohan se sitten hunneilta tai alaaneilta levinnyt heruleille, jotka toivat sen Suomeen ja Skandinaviaan?

Lieneekö oikea ketju kysellä tätä, tai onkohan aiemmin tullut esille; saunakulttuuristamme.
Kuinka kauan saunominen on ollut tapana meillä Suomenniemeä asuttavilla? Keskiajalta? Kauempaa?
Onko suomalais-ugrilaisilla kansoilla muualla ollut sama tapa?